Exclusive:  Editors Chris Rand and Kevin Birou discuss their experience working on Apple TV+’s The Crowded Room. 

They took time from their New York base to speak to Over the Shoulder about editing Tom Holland’s new psychological drama. We began by discussing the strikes that have affected many aspects of the entertainment industry. They said that when they finished The Crowded Room, everything was shutting down and projects were getting postponed. With all the work on the show over the last year, the editors wanted a break, but had not envisaged a six-month hiatus brought on by the strikes. They agreed that when the strikes end, everyone will be competing for work in the entertainment industry, which will bring its own stressors.

So, to The Crowded Room.  

What drew you both into getting into this project?

CHRIS

I read the scripts and was really interested in the story, particularly the mental health aspect. I think it’s not very often a story with this kind of emotional honesty gets this scale of treatment, so that was a big draw for me. I had just worked with Antonio Campos on The Staircase and he spoke the world of the directors on The Crowded Room. Akiva (Goldsman) is just a legend in Hollywood and a project merging his writing and producing sensibilities with the filmic, cinematic sensibilities of all the directors was exciting to me.

KEVIN

I first worked with Chris as an additional/associate editor on Max’s The Staircase. Once we were nearing the end of that show, Chris was approached to work on The Crowded Room and he decided to bring me on as a creative partner. After I read the scripts, I knew this story could be healing for some viewers and educational for others. I’m always excited when I get to work on projects that aren’t afraid to address important topics. I believed it would be good out in the world – to help encourage empathy for those suffering with mental health.

What was the most challenging episode that you had to edit?

KEVIN

Episode nine was particularly challenging. It’s essentially a bottle episode, taking place largely in the courtroom. Given those constraints, we were cognizant that things could get repetitive if we didn’t make the scenes emotionally specific. For example, if there was a win or loss for a particular side, we wanted the audience to be following those ups and downs. We also did a lot of fine-tuning reaction shots – like when is the most effective time to cut to Rya, Candy, Stan, Danny, the jury, etc? Lots of finessing in that regard to guide the story emotionally. 

CHRIS

Same with London, with the quasi-bottle episode nature of that one. But, I agree: nine was interesting with wins and losses and we wanted to make sure we were following Tom and understanding Danny’s emotional arc in that episode. He only says about four words in the whole episode and the decision his character makes at the end of that episode is very drastic. So, we needed to make sure that was earned.

How long did it take to edit each episode?

KEVIN

We worked on the show for roughly a year. However, there’s no easy answer to how long each episode took. We worked on so many that I’ve lost track of the specific timeline. The whole process really felt like one big movie instead of a series. Everything we did in the early episodes laid breadcrumbs for things we paid off in the later ones. It was all one large puzzle.

CHRIS

All told there were six editors on the whole show, and it took a little over a year. We were editing through the 10 months shoot and we didn’t have anything locked until well after they finished shooting. There’s no real answer for how long each episode took. Also, we did something kind of untraditional with television which is that we edited in order (not as concurrently as most shows). For example, because of the nature of the show’s material we couldn’t make a lot of decisions in episode eight until episodes one through five were totally locked.

Was the collaboration good with the directors and producers, was it cohesive or did you have some pitfalls in the whole process?

KEVIN

There were challenges, like any creative process, but it was such a rewarding experience. Just being able to work on this emotionally complex story with someone as brilliant as Akiva. And there was no ego in the edit room. Akiva was open to anyone’s opinions and feedback. The environment he created was very collaborative and open-minded. We all had the same goal – to make the show as good as possible. 

CHRIS

The whole post crew and all the editors and AEs were so amazing and Apple were such great, supportive creative partners. The directors brought such incredible perspective and style to the material and it was a treat working with them. Tom was really dialled into the process and he and Akiva were dogged in their pursuit of making this the best show possible. This material is so personal to Akiva and his ability to keep the complex web of the story intact while maintaining the emotional integrity of the material was exhilarating to see and be a part of. As we got deeper into the process, we realized more and more that each person on the team came to this story with a personal experience that affected their perspective and engagement with the themes of the show. In that way, the deeper into the collaboration we got the more personal, empathetic, and universal the show felt.

You said in a tweet, Chris, that you got to edit with some of your favourite songs you put in the show. What were they? 

CHRIS

First of all, I just have to give so much credit to our music department. Sue Jacobs, our amazing music supervisor, worked so much magic and we had such immense support from Apple Music to be able to take really big swings. As far as my personal faves, I was so happy that the Harry Nillson song “Don’t Leave Me” stayed in the scene when Candy and Danny are driving to the bar. I love that song and, for me, it centered that scene on young Danny’s admiration and love for Candy. I am also a huge Beach Boys fan and was thrilled we got to use “Time To Get Alone” for the montage of Candy and Marlin falling in love. I always felt like it injected that “exciting new love” sensation into the scene, which is so needed for us as viewers to want that relationship to work and feel the hope that this will bring Candy and, ultimately, Danny happiness, even though we already know it won’t.

KEVIN

My favorite use of music during the show is the nightclub sequence in episode two. Big props to Sue and the music department for putting it together. I find that whole set piece mesmerizing – between the long takes, the energy, and the mystery of what Ariana is up to. I definitely listened to Joy Division a lot more once we put that track in (“Disorder”). And Chris would dance in the edit room whenever “Spank” came on. Now that I reflect on it, that sequence was a nice burst of levity for us in a show filled with such dark themes.

Also, a special shout out to “Miracles” by Jefferson Starship in the pilot. When the music builds from Annabelle and Danny’s meet cute through the tree shadows shifting in the light, it really encapsulates young love.

CHRIS

A fun tidbit about the “Miracles” sequence is that Annabelle tripping as she leaves Danny at the trees was a total accident. That is a scene with very specific light and they had a short window to shoot it and she fell down on one of the last takes, but we found that moment to be so cute and human and it immediately endears you to Annabelle. One of those magic moments where you think something went wrong but it went totally right in a way you didn’t expect.

The audience is absolutely loving the show, although some critics are somewhat disagreeing. What is your opinion on this? 

CHRIS

The initial critical response was disappointing and a bit of a surprise, but it’s been so exciting to see audiences get excited about the show and engage with it. I think critics, particularly folks who binge, have to watch 10 hours and then make a decision very quickly about it. Our show jumps between genres and changes how we ask you to watch it several times and if you’re not spending time with it and engaging with it deliberately, then I can imagine that can also be frustrating. It seemed like the weekly episode releases really gave space for audiences to react to the evolution of the characters and consider how the story developed from their initial expectations of what kind of show this would be.

KEVIN

If you see our show as only a mystery box with a big reveal, I think that’s not giving it enough credit. The show has a lot more depth and emotional complexity than just a twist. It’s really a story about healing, and the long winding road to get there. 

Our goal was to put the audience in Danny’s shoes for the first several episodes, to understand how he views the world, and then through the interviews with Rya, slowly unravel his reality. We wanted the viewers to empathize with Danny, to feel his discombobulation. Essentially, to relate to him. We knew that a lot of viewers would catch on earlier than Danny as to what is really going on, but the intent was for the drama to be in witnessing Danny’s realization.

Do you have any projects coming up? 

CHRIS

I’ve been in some talks but there’s nothing starting up for me due to the ongoing strikes. No one knows when anything is actually happening yet. It’s all opaque. Who knows. For now I am taking a break and going to the movies as much as I can.

KEVIN

I’m finishing up an indie movie I’ve worked on for the past year called Unspoken. It’s about an Orthodox Jewish boy in high school, coming to terms with his homosexuality and all the ramifications of that. Between that and The Crowded Room, I’ve worked on a lot of serious dramas lately. I’d love to take a crack at a comedy or something light-hearted next. 

CHRIS

Haha, same!

Do you have any advice for aspiring editors out there?

CHRIS

Watch stuff and edit stuff. Don’t be afraid to, or don’t be shy to, contact people if you like their work (within reason, of course). There’s a million ways to contact people and if you like editing and there’s someone who edited a show you really liked, there’s probably a way for you to be in touch with them and connect about the work. Our industry is often quite insular, but earnest interest and excitement go a long way in forging connections.

KEVIN

My biggest piece of advice is make sure that editing is your passion – that there’s nothing else you’d rather be doing. As incredibly rewarding as this job is, it’s also a job filled with long hours, deadlines, and lots of unforeseen challenges. You have to have that burning passion, that inner flame, to get you through the tough times. 

When you’re first trying to break into the industry, you’ll probably need to be a post production assistant. That’s how I started. It’s a good litmus test to see who can handle the challenges of an edit room. Once you’re in, be sure to express your editing aspirations. Ask as many questions as you can. Shadow the editors/assistants if they’re cool with it. Anything to learn the craft and show your interest. Over time, as you build up respect with your colleagues, opportunities will arise and help you move up.

Also, edit anything you can on the side. Short films, music videos, commercials, even features if you have the time. Doing these smaller projects will help build up your skillset for larger Hollywood productions. 

Over the Shoulder would like to thank Chris Rand and Kevin Birou for their contributions and insights into the world of editing and in particular their experience on The Crowded Room.

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